Post-frame construction continues to expand far beyond its agricultural roots. Megan Pope, Executive Director of the National Frame Building Association, joins Building With Metal to discuss where the industry is headed, the skilled labor challenge, what successful contractors are doing differently and how NFBA programs, chapters and the Frame Building Expo are helping builders prepare for the future.
Megan Pope: "The biggest one, Kathi, is that post-frame construction is just for barns. That's the misconception. Post-frame construction has grown into a super-versatile way of creating beautiful structures, and it isn't just barns anymore."
Morgan Arwood: "I like to call it the mom test. As kids are leaving high school and looking toward their future, if they can show their mom that there's a clear path to success through the construction industry, they have a much better chance of getting into it."
Morgan Arwood: "Now is the time to invest in your people. The silver tsunami is happening now, so this is the time to start sharing knowledge with the younger people in your company. Once that knowledge is gone, it's gone."
[00:00:17] Kathi Miller: Megan, you've had a front-row seat to one of the fastest-growing segments in the construction industry. What are some of the misconceptions that still plague post-frame construction?
[00:00:26] Megan Pope: The biggest one, Kathi, is that post-frame construction is just for barns. That's the misconception. Post-frame construction has grown into a super-versatile way of creating beautiful structures, and it isn't just barns anymore.
[00:00:43] Kathi Miller: I like that. Very true. So when you look at the future of post-frame construction, what excites you the most?
[00:00:50] Megan Pope: The expanding market. There's huge buzz about barndominiums and about being able to build multifunctional structures. Maybe you live in them, maybe you don't. Maybe they're for recreation, worship, or an office building. People are starting to catch on.
[00:01:06] Megan Pope: We're seeing the popularity of post-frame construction continue to grow in areas of this country and even overseas because of everything it can do. The construction method is also more user-friendly than many other types of construction.
[00:01:22] Kathi Miller: Awesome. We'll dig into that and more on our show today. Post-frame construction has come a long way from the 1960s. It's not just for agricultural buildings anymore. It's often used in commercial and residential construction and, as Megan indicated, even some stunning architectural projects.
[00:01:39] Kathi Miller: Welcome to the Building With Metal podcast. I'm your host, Kathi Miller, and today I am thrilled to be joined by Megan Pope, executive director of the National Frame Building Association, and their membership director, Morgan Arwood. We're going to talk about post-frame construction, the future, skilled labor challenges, what successful contractors are doing to differentiate themselves from their competitors, and how the NFBA can help with all of that.
[00:02:04] Kathi Miller: Welcome to the show, ladies.
[00:02:06] Morgan Arwood: Thanks for having us, Kathi.
[00:02:07] Kathi Miller: We're looking forward to the conversation. The first thing I'm really curious about is where you see post-frame construction heading in the next five to 10 years that it isn't already today.
[00:02:19] Megan Pope: I would say it's going to expand geographically, like we touched on. It's growing. I think it's going to involve a lot more technology than it has in the past, and that's going to advance things for a lot of companies. I think it's just going to continue to gain popularity.
[00:02:39] Megan Pope: It's a great system.
[00:02:41] Kathi Miller: Let's talk about why it's gaining popularity. Maybe we have a listener today who has never used post-frame construction, or maybe they're just starting to consider it. What are the biggest benefits?
[00:02:54] Megan Pope: One of the biggest is the speed at which you can get a project done. It's a faster solution. It's faster to plan and faster to build. If you're trying to get a structure up within a certain amount of time, this is a solution for that. Per square foot, it's also generally cheaper than other types of construction.
[00:03:17] Megan Pope: So there's a cost savings. The materials it takes to build post-frame structures are readily available in most places, both in this country and other countries. It's also sustainable. Wood is a major component, and while there are other components that go into the structure, overall it's a sustainable choice.
[00:03:36] Kathi Miller: One thing I want to follow up on, Megan: you've indicated a couple of times that post-frame construction is being used in other countries. I really wasn't aware that it had a growing footprint internationally. What countries are you seeing start to utilize this method?
[00:03:48] Megan Pope: There are a few in Eastern Europe, specifically Ukraine. We have a couple of NFBA members, Dwayne Borkholder and Todd Meinhold, who go over there quite frequently. They've been teaching people how to build post-frame buildings, and it's catching on like wildfire because it's much easier to use the materials for post-frame construction there than it is for traditional building styles.
[00:04:17] Megan Pope: All the things I just named apply. It's faster, it's cheaper for them, and they're able to teach the people living in those areas how to build it. When a post-frame building is engineered properly, it is one heck of a structure. It can outlast a lot of things.
[00:04:32] Megan Pope: You build it once, and they don't have to worry about it falling down. It's catching on pretty quickly.
[00:04:37] Morgan Arwood: The challenges Ukraine has faced over the last couple of years with the war with Russia have left a lot of people unhoused. There's no place to worship and nowhere to go. When Dwayne and Todd go over there, they're truly helping people put a roof over their kids' heads. One of the things Megan mentioned earlier is that it's quicker to get a post-frame building constructed than it is using many other methods. Ukraine also has lots of wood, so Todd and Dwayne have been very generous with their time and knowledge in helping the people of Ukraine.
[00:05:09] Kathi Miller: That is fascinating. I've known them both personally over the years, but I had no idea they were doing that. That's a wonderful effort on their part.
[00:05:17] Morgan Arwood: Something else: post-frame is actually the oldest type of construction, so it's been used all over the world forever.
[00:05:24] Kathi Miller: I didn't know it was the oldest. Okay.
[00:05:25] Morgan Arwood: Yeah.
[00:05:26] Kathi Miller: You're teaching me all kinds of things today. So what are the limitations of post-frame construction, or are there any?
[00:05:32] Megan Pope: No.
[00:05:36] Kathi Miller: If only, right? Everything has a limitation.
[00:05:38] Megan Pope: Yes, I'm sure there are. People ask, "What if it's an area with hurricanes?" But I've heard our engineer members say that if you engineer it correctly, it can qualify for at least some level of hurricane resistance. Extreme weather really isn't a problem when the structure is designed appropriately.
[00:05:57] Megan Pope: They consider wind load and snow load. That's a big deal to the people who design these structures.
[00:06:03] Kathi Miller: What if somebody wanted a really wide clear-span building? Can it do that?
[00:06:07] Megan Pope: It definitely can. That's one of my favorite things about it. It's really good for warehouses, recreation centers, or anywhere you want to be able to hit a volleyball or basketball across three courts without columns in the middle of the floor.
[00:06:26] Megan Pope: Anything like that, it's really good for.
[00:06:29] Morgan Arwood: Customers are looking for flexible space, things they can use for anything from housing helicopters to hobby shops with lots of old cars. The applications of post-frame construction are really significant.
[00:06:43] Kathi Miller: They're really limitless anymore, right? I've been in the industry for longer than I care to admit, and it used to be that you saw post-frame only in agricultural buildings. It's so cool now. I think one of your Building of the Year awards last year was a bank, maybe one that Blunier Buildings did, that was a straight-up commercial project. You're seeing more and more of that.
[00:07:05] Morgan Arwood: When we see the pictures that come in with the Building of the Year applications, it's really exciting to see what they can do.
[00:07:10] Kathi Miller: We'd be remiss if we didn't talk about another challenge: skilled labor. That has plagued not just post-frame, but the entire construction industry for the last four to five years. How is the NFBA helping tackle that issue?
[00:07:29] Megan Pope: Kathi, we're taking that head-on. We've developed a curriculum that teaches post-frame construction. It focuses mainly on the basics, the core of post-frame construction. The program has a textbook, an instructor's guide, testing, and even online testing.
[00:07:48] Megan Pope: It's something that can be easily implemented within a company for onboarding. If you can find people who are willing to work but aren't well-versed in post-frame, you can still bring them in and teach them the trade. It's a solid starting point for them.
[00:08:06] Megan Pope: We're also making an effort to share that curriculum with schools, career technical schools, and high schools, and to get it into their construction programs. It's about awareness and education for those coming into the workforce.
[00:08:26] Kathi Miller: I was really excited by something you may have read recently. It seems like college enrollments are starting to bottom out, and we're seeing the trades become more interesting to people. That's super exciting for our whole industry.
[00:08:41] Kathi Miller: For years we've had customers who had more bandwidth and wanted to build more buildings, and they had people who wanted to buy them, but they didn't have enough crews to build them. It would be exciting if we could start to see that turn around as an industry.
[00:08:54] Megan Pope: Absolutely. It's still lingering and it's still a problem, but at least now we're seeing a shift on a large scale. If we can all hold it together while these kids get through school...
[00:09:08] Kathi Miller: That's the truth right there.
[00:09:10] Megan Pope: Yeah.
[00:09:10] Morgan Arwood: I like to call it the mom test. As kids are leaving high school and looking toward their future, if they can show their mom that there's a clear path to success through the construction industry, they have a much better chance of getting into it. We need to make sure that path is clear and that they understand they won't have to work with their hands forever unless they want to.
[00:09:32] Morgan Arwood: You can go into project management. You can own your own business. There are a lot of possibilities within the industry.
[00:09:38] Kathi Miller: That's a really great point. Is that something you talk about through the curriculum, or how do you try to get that message out?
[00:09:44] Morgan Arwood: Not really through the curriculum. Being a great builder doesn't necessarily mean you have a great business. We try to give members the knowledge they need to hire the right people, people who are going to be loyal.
[00:09:58] Morgan Arwood: If you can show a kid or young adult that if they do X, Y, and Z, they'll be able to move up within the company, it makes it a lot easier to keep them onboard. NFBA provides a lot of education surrounding all aspects of the business, not just workforce development.
[00:10:14] Kathi Miller: I want to talk about those benefits in more depth. But before we do that, I'm fascinated by some of the programs you've started. You have Crew Foreman of the Year, and Megan mentioned Building of the Year. Talk to us about why you instituted those programs and the value they provide for your membership.
[00:10:33] Morgan Arwood: Crew Foreman of the Year is an excellent way for companies to single out employees who show excellence. When a company has a Crew Foreman of the Year, they can tell prospective customers that they've been recognized by a national organization for having excellent employees.
[00:10:52] Morgan Arwood: It's probably a selling point for them. I know the crew foremen are honored when they receive it, and when somebody works hard and shows excellence at their job, it's worthwhile to recognize that.
[00:11:03] Kathi Miller: In case our listeners aren't familiar, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think one person is nominated and selected each month, and then at the end of the year, the Crew Foreman of the Year is chosen from those 12. Is that right?
[00:11:14] Morgan Arwood: That's correct.
[00:11:15] Kathi Miller: And they're nominated by their company owner or builder?
[00:11:18] Morgan Arwood: Yes. NFBA membership goes by the company, so anyone who works for that company is an NFBA member. Anyone within the company would be eligible to nominate somebody.
[00:11:28] Kathi Miller: Let's talk about the Building of the Year program. What kinds of categories are there, and what types of promotion do people receive during the year and afterward?
[00:11:38] Morgan Arwood: We have lots of categories: hobby shops, barndominiums, agricultural buildings, garages, and many others. NFBA members are eligible to submit applications for a building completed within the last two years. Previously, we only had a one-year deadline, but we heard from our builders that they really like having two years so the landscaping has time to grow in and the building looks complete.
[00:12:05] Morgan Arwood: We're not looking at mud puddles.
[00:12:07] Kathi Miller: Yeah. It does make a difference.
[00:12:09] Morgan Arwood: It does. When we see these applications come in, it's astonishing what builders can do with these buildings, especially the versatility of the exteriors. They can make the building look like almost anything. It's exciting to see how creative our builders are and the different ways they can design buildings.
[00:12:28] Kathi Miller: Creativity is a great word. I go back to a temple that I think was one of the award winners last year. Not only was it copper-colored material, which you would have never thought of on a post-frame building 30 or 40 years ago, but I think there was even a rounded dome on it. The sky really is the limit if you're working with a builder who has that creative mindset.
[00:12:59] Kathi Miller: Let's shift a little and talk about the expo. I've been to the expo for years, as have both of you, but if we have somebody listening today who's never been there, why should they go? What will they see, and how will they benefit?
[00:13:01] Megan Pope: The expo is going to be February 8th through the 10th in Columbus, Ohio, which is especially exciting for our staff because we're located in Dayton, Ohio. So it's right in our backyard.
[00:13:17] Megan Pope: Columbus is a great place, and you should come this year because you can maximize your networking time. We've expanded show hours and added education we've never had before. It's going to be a lot of activity and great networking packed into those three days.
[00:13:39] Megan Pope: If you haven't come yet, this is your time. It's time to boost your business, and that's exactly what you can get out of attending.
[00:13:49] Kathi Miller: Is it just a trade show, or are there educational sessions and speakers in addition to the show?
[00:13:55] Megan Pope: We have education in addition to the trade show floor. The trade show floor itself is great and has been growing year to year. We've seen a lot of great vendors sign up that we haven't seen before.
[00:14:19] Megan Pope: We usually have three education tracks: business management, technical and safety, and sales and marketing. This year we've also added a track for building code officials or people who need continuing education in the building code field. That's part of our effort to educate people who may start using post-frame construction or seeing more of it in the field.
[00:14:41] Megan Pope: We have about 19 classes to choose from. On the expo floor, we also have a demo area. What we put in the demo area is usually more hands-on. You can watch a building progress and things like that.
[00:15:03] Kathi Miller: Does somebody have to be an NFBA member to attend the show?
[00:15:07] Megan Pope: No, absolutely not. It's open to everybody.
[00:15:11] Kathi Miller: How does somebody find out more about it if they're interested?
[00:15:13] Megan Pope: The easiest way is to go to our website, nfba.org. You can also give us a call. Morgan and I work with a great team of people, and any of us would be happy to help you navigate how to get there and what you need to know.
[00:15:33] Kathi Miller: The expo, without a doubt, is a great reason to become an NFBA member. But beyond that, you've touched on a few other things that bear further discussion. Morgan, since you're the membership director, what are the top benefits when you're talking to prospective members?
[00:15:51] Morgan Arwood: There are tangible and intangible benefits. One tangible benefit is our legal services plan. Members get 30 minutes per month with NFBA legal counsel, Gary Auman of Auman, Mahan & Furry. He's supported by an entire law firm that covers anything from OSHA defense to contracts, anything that could apply to a business.
[00:16:14] Morgan Arwood: If you use that benefit alone, it can pay for your membership. We also offer technical resources. If a builder isn't sure whether the snow load is right, the venting is correct, or the foundation they plan to use is appropriate for that geographical area, they can contact me and I'll put them in touch with people who know the answer.
[00:16:37] Morgan Arwood: Beyond that are the intangibles, especially networking. I think networking is probably the number one thing our board, committee members, and members would say they enjoy. It's great to have people who do what you do, who aren't necessarily competitors, and who have dealt with the same problems. They can tell you how they got through them without you having to flounder your way through for who knows how long.
[00:17:00] Morgan Arwood: It's really nice to see our members work together in that way. We also have a lot of newer discounts available. NFBA members get discounts from FedEx and QuickBooks, and many of our associate members offer five or 10% off their bill just for being a member.
[00:17:18] Morgan Arwood: The benefits are incredible and very worthwhile.
[00:17:21] Kathi Miller: Without a doubt, I know McElroy has been a member of the NFBA for a long time.
[00:17:37] Morgan Arwood: McElroy has had a big part in NFBA, and we thank you very much for that.
There are different prices, so members get a reduced price, but we sell the Basic Principles of Post-Frame Construction to anyone. We don't gatekeep in that way. Of course, we'd like you to join, and if you do, there are a lot of discounts available, including on the Post-Frame Building Design Manual.
[00:18:21] Morgan Arwood: There are a lot of publications we offer that help builders regularly, but anyone can buy them.
[00:18:27] Kathi Miller: One thing we haven't talked about yet, and we'd be remiss to wrap up without discussing, is the chapters and affiliations. Can you walk us through how robust those are and what somebody might get out of being involved with one?
[00:18:41] Morgan Arwood: The chapters are really important because they expose different geographical regions to NFBA and our resources, but just as importantly, they focus on local issues, such as what's going on with local building codes. We help manage the Heartland chapter, the Wisconsin Frame Building Association, and the Buckeye Frame Building Association. Megan and some of her team have also developed the Great Lakes Post Frame Building Association.
[00:19:11] Morgan Arwood: It's a good way to get local builders together without necessarily having the expense of taking everyone from their office to Columbus, in this case. It's also a great way to expose younger members of their team to the association world locally and without the larger expense, so they can start to see the benefits of it.
[00:19:34] Kathi Miller: What does that look like? Do they meet monthly at different locations?
[00:19:37] Morgan Arwood: It varies. The Heartland chapter just had its annual golf outing in conjunction with some education. The Wisconsin Frame Building Association has an annual expo with tabletops where vendors can bring in new products and show them off, along with some education.
[00:19:54] Morgan Arwood: And Megan, if I'm not mistaken, the Wisconsin group also tours some plants up there.
[00:20:01] Megan Pope: They do.
[00:20:04] Morgan Arwood: The Buckeye Frame Building Association is similar, but local to Ohio, so it's easy to get to. This year, NFBA and BFBA are going to do a joint show in Columbus, so it's going to be pretty neat.
[00:20:18] Kathi Miller: Before we wrap things up, is there anything we haven't hit on, whether it's a benefit NFBA provides or something somebody should consider if they're thinking about membership?
[00:20:28] Morgan Arwood: NFBA started the foundation within the last few years. Megan, is it about three years old?
[00:20:34] Megan Pope: Yes, about three years old.
[00:20:36] Morgan Arwood: The foundation is the 501 arm of NFBA. It funds research, education, and scholarships. Scholarships are something new that NFBA is offering. In conjunction with the expo, we have the Expo Social, which is an auction and social event. It's a lot of fun, and everyone dresses up.
[00:20:57] Morgan Arwood: Last year we had a mechanical bull, and it was fun to see everyone get flung off. We also had a jail where people could put each other in jail. It's just fun to see some of these guys go through it.
[00:21:12] Kathi Miller: The goal of that event is to serve as a fundraiser, correct?
[00:21:15] Morgan Arwood: It is, for the foundation.
[00:21:17] Kathi Miller: What does the foundation hope to do with the money you raise?
[00:21:21] Morgan Arwood: We're funding industry research, education, and scholarships.
[00:21:25] Kathi Miller: Before we wrap up, if you could each give a builder one piece of advice to think about for the next five years, what would it be? Let's start with you, Megan.
[00:21:35] Megan Pope: Stand strong. If you're getting flak for wanting to put up a post-frame building, hold your ground, reach out to us, join forces with other resources, and continue doing what you're doing. We're going to get there. Things are going in the right direction.
[00:21:49] Kathi Miller: How about you, Morgan?
[00:21:51] Morgan Arwood: I would say now is the time to invest in your people. The silver tsunami is happening now, so this is the time to start sharing knowledge with the younger people in your company. Once that knowledge is gone, it's gone.
[00:22:04] Kathi Miller: It's too late then to retain it. Would you like to offer some contact information in case somebody listening today wants to reach out with specific questions?
[00:22:14] Megan Pope: Sure. The website is nfba.org, and my email is mpope@nfba.org.
[00:22:23] Morgan Arwood: And I'm first initial, last name: marwood@nfba.org.
[00:22:28] Kathi Miller: Awesome. Thanks for joining the show, ladies, and if not before, we'll see you in February.
[00:22:32] Morgan Arwood: Thank you.
[00:22:33] Megan Pope: Great. Thank you.
McElroy Metal manufactures metal roofing and siding products for residential, commercial, agricultural, and industrial applications. Headquartered in Bossier City, Louisiana, with plants and service centers across the United States, McElroy supplies contractors, architects, designers, and building owners with metal panel systems, accessories, and the engineering expertise to use them well.